Rapture Must Be Pre-Trib

by Sam
(Oregon)

I recently finished a document, based on scripture, that CLEARLY shows that the Rapture is before the 7 years of tribulation. God (the Father) has no plans to pour out His wrath on His Son's Bride (the Church). The tribulation is His time to deal with Israel (Jacob's 70th week) and the earth-dwellers (those who have rejected Christ). I've posted this document on Facebook at Rapture Day Preppers for anyone interested in knowing the truth of scripture.

Reply from Watchman Bob: Your statement is based on a false assumption and interpretation of Scripture. The "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21) will not be the wrath of Yahuah ("God") being poured out on the "Church" or anyone else. The Great Tribulation will be the wrath of Satan being poured out on the "Church" (Rev 12:12, 17; 13:7).

Comments for Rapture Must Be Pre-Trib

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May 23, 2015
 One Faith
by: Ruth

Beloved, let us love one another...Saints, let no corrupting talk come out of our mouths, but only such as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. Let's discuss matters kindly and in love and unity, that we may be pleasing to the Father, that we may be one, even as the son and the Father are one. Amen.

Response from Watchman Bob: Good exhortation, Ruth. But, we must also realize that we are in a spiritual warfare - correctly interpreting the Word, contending earnestly for the faith and tearing down the strongholds of the enemy (which includes destroying false doctrines of demons that imperil our souls).
Mar 26, 2015
 The Church in the Olivet Discourse?
by: Anonymous (#2)

Of course, I respect your opinion and agree with you that it's not something to fight over or to major on, but I'm going to chip in my two cents anyway.

I am personally convinced from my own study of the Word that one of the most fundamental mistakes so many students of the Bible make is to blithely read the Church slam into the middle of the Olivet Discourse, particularly the version presented in Matthew 24-25 (the "Gettysburg of the Gospels" as I like to call it).

Christians in America read the Gospels and all they see is the Church--it's like "Old MacDonald Had a Church...E I E I O."

But it's not there, and neither is the Rapture.

The disciples were fully expecting to get in on the ground floor of the kingdom, which they believed was right around the corner (after all, they had read the book of Daniel). Thus when Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed, it blew them away. That's why Peter, James, John, and Andrew came to Jesus in private--they needed some answers.

As Jews, they assumed it was (a) Messiah comes, and (b) He establishes the kingdom...and they *knew* Jesus was the Messiah. They had seen too much to believe otherwise. So they asked him three questions, all pertaining to the future of Israel (they knew *nothing* of the Church, let alone the Rapture).

They asked Jesus (a) when would the events He had described to them earlier happen (i.e., when would temple be destroyed, which was uppermost in their minds), (b) what would be the sign of His coming to establish the kingdom (which they assumed they were going to live to see and be part of), and (c) what would be the sign of the end of the age (i.e., the "present age," which to the Jews was equivalent to the beginning of the kingdom).

Clearly all three questions pertain strictly to the future of Israel, yet people automatically read the Church and the Rapture into the middle of this and make it all about *us*.

The next thing you know, you've got people believing all kinds of screwy things: a post-trib Rapture (which is biblically impossible), that the Church has replaced Israel (which it most certainly hasn't), that our salvation is conditional (which it certainly isn't), ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

In my humble opinion, the Church and the Rapture are never mentioned and are nowhere in sight in the Olivet Discourse and any attempt to read them into it leads to a tsunami of errors.

For example, this is why so many people struggle with the Parable of the Ten Virgins--the virgins have *nothing* to do with the Church. They struggle with the Sheep and Goat Judgment--the sheep and the goats have *nothing* to do with the Church.

If people will read the Gospels carefully and without their Church-colored glasses, it's amazing how clear things become.

Reply from Watchman Bob:

Anonymous #2, I have just a few questions for you:

1) To whom was Yahushua ("Jesus") speaking in the Olivet discourse about what would happen to them and what to look for in the future? Just to Jews or to His disciples (future members of the "Church")?
2) About what period of time in history was He speaking - just the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem, or the "End of the Age" (see Mat 24:3)?
3) When did Yahushua promise His disciples (the "Church") exemption from persecution, tribulation (including "great tribulation") and martyrdom? (see Matthew 10 and Revelation 2 & 3 for exactly the opposite warnings to the "Church.")

Anonymous, what do you think the millions of believers in the Middle East and other areas of the world who are presently suffering the worst persecution, torture and martyrdom in history think of the pre-trib doctrine? Indeed, please let me suggest that the cop-out, escapist pre-trib doctrine of demons will result in the destruction of the faith of many American Christians, who are comfortable and complacent in their churchianity, when the soon-coming holocaust hits America.

If you would like to reply to the above questions, rather than add to the confusion emanating from this controversial issue by going 'round and 'round over it in this forum, please contact me personally through the Contact Bob page of this website, and I will be glad to continue our dialog.
Dec 21, 2014
 BA1980
by: Anonymous (#1)

I have always had trouble with Rev. 4:1-2 pertaining to the Rapture. Also people say that it is just the Jews that are talked about from Rev. 4 to 22. I wonder who is being talked about in Rev 6:9-11? I think it will be the fellow Christians still on earth. Then we come to 2 Thess. 2:1-4. That tells me that the man of sin IS revealed, the son of perdition.

Now does Luke 21:25-26, Matt. 24:29-30, and Mark 13:24-25 sound like the same time as the opening of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12-13? Then read the next two verses of Luke, Matt. and Mark. Sounds like the Rapture to me.

Now we know from several verses that believers do not experience God's Wrath. Well let us look at Rev. 6:17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Yep, the rapture is in the above verses and then His wrath. So now read Rev. 7:9-10 and Rev. 7:13-14 and we are told about those that came out of the Great Tribulation. That is the time of Satan's wrath here on earth from the beginning of the last seven years until the time of Rev. 6 and the sixth seal. Then we have God's wrath after the rapture.

I would like a good explanation of a differences of my ideas from yours, or agreement, if you would please.

Response from Watchman Bob:

I understand ... End Times prophecies can be very confusing if we just take passages of Scripture from here and there and try to piece them all together.

However, I have discovered that if we study all the prophecies of the Word concerning the Last Days, in context, from the Hebraic point of view of the writers, noticing how they explain one another, a clear picture of the sequence of events of the "Final Seven Years" comes into focus.

As to the return of the Messiah and the catching up (the "Rapture") of His Redeemed Ones, the exact timing in Scripture is not clear. So I will not be dogmatic. However, we do have a few hints as to when the Rapture will occur. The "falling away" (apostasy of the "Church") and the revealing of the "man of sin ... the son of perdition" will precede the rapture. In fact, the "man of sin ... the son of perdition" is the "beast" (the anti-messiah) who will be revealed at the mid-point of the Final Seven Years, when he stands in the Holy Place and falsely proclaims himself to be God (cf. Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; Mat 24:15; 2 Thes 2:4; Rev 13:4, 5).

So, the rapture must occur after the midpoint of the Final Seven Years. I doubt, however, that the rapture will occur when the sixth seal is broken, as some suggest, because there is no mention in the text (Rev 6:12-17) of the Messiah's return at that time - only the beginning of the wrath of the Father and the Son being poured out, which continues through the plagues of the trumpets and the bowls of wrath. Also, there are references to the sound of a trump - the Last Trump - at the time of the gathering of the elect/the rapture (Mat 24:31; 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thes 4:16). Third, the Feast of Trumpets has been, throughout Israel's history, associated with the resurrection and the coronation of the King who will sit on David's throne. So, I tend to lean toward the view that the rapture will occur at the sounding of the seventh and final trump at the end of the Final Seven Years, just before the bowls of wrath are poured out. It's not that the Believers will not go through any of the Wrath of God (the plagues of the seven trumpets), which will occur simultaneously with the Great Tribulation (the wrath of Satan), but those true Believers who are still alive will be raptured prior to the pouring out of the bowls of wrath, which are the "last plagues" of His wrath (Rev 15:1). See the introduction to my commentary on Rev 19 for more details. That's how I see it happening, anyway.

However, again, I will not be dogmatic as to the exact timing of the Rapture, because the important thing is that we be ready at all times to meet our Maker, don't you agree? I'd hate to die, find myself standing before the Lord and hear Him say, "Why were you quibbling over the timing of the rapture when you should have been simply helping as many souls get saved as possible? Isn't that why I put you on Earth - not to be wasting precious time arguing over controversial doctrines?

Keep looking up and encouraging others to do the same.

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Common English translations of Hebrew and Messianic terms used in this commentary:

Yehovah - the LORD or GOD
Yah - I Am (the short form         of Yehovah)
Elohim - God
El - God (the short form of         Elohim)
Adonai - my Lord or Master
Yeshua - Jesus
Followers of Yeshua - 
     Christians
Messiah - Christ
Assembly of Followers of
     Yeshua - the Church
Antimessiah - Antichrist
BBM - Before the Birth of
     the Messiah (rather than
     BC or BCE)
ABM - After the Birth of the      Messiah (rather than AD
    or CE)

For a complete explanation of Hebrew terms used, go to Important Terms and Concepts.